Lore: So hello everybody. Today we will be talking about questions/remarks that are targeted towards trans people, usually by cis people.

 

Zee: And we have a couple of guests. First of all, this is Lore.

 

Lore: Yes, this is Lore.

 

Zee: This is Zee, your usual podcasters. We have some pretty awesome guests today. We have Nadz.

 

Nadz: Hello.

 

Zee: And Emmy.

 

Emmy: Hi.

 

Zee: Hello.

 

Nadz: بتصور ليوم عم نحكي عن الناس يلي هني ترانس، أو يلي عندن هوية جندرية غير نمطية بالبلد. وأنواع الملاحظات يلي بيسمعوا أو الأسئلة أو تعاطي المجتمع معن كيف بكون. فأنا إسمي نادز. ناشطة، ومن ناحية الجندر بعرف عن حالي كشخص gender-queer يلي هي بتوقع بال-umbrella تبع الناس يلي معروفين بالترانس. في إنو شكلن أو يعني كيف بعبرو عن ال-gender أو النوع الإجتماعي تبعن منو نمطي. يعني بغلبة أوقات بين البنت أو الشاب أو بالنص أو لأ. فمبستة كتير إنو عم شارككن بهل حديث.

 

Zee: يا أهلا وسهلا.

Nadz: Thank you.

 

Zee: Emmy, would you like to introduce yourself.

 

Emmy: Uhm, sure. I’m Emmy. I guess, of relevance, is that I’m a trans lady, but also I identify genderqueer. Just to confuse you a bit, I also tend to think of myself as transmasculine.

 

Zee: Oh my. You’re gonna have to explain. What is transmasculine?

 

Emmy: But, I don’t know. I’m queer and I do a lot of things.

Zee: This is the academic defenition of transmasculine. “I’m queer and I do a lot of things.” I like that.

 

Lore: أنا لور.

 

Zee: غير هيك حبيبي.

 

Lore: I’m a trans man, and I prefer male pronouns completely, yes even though I look like a huge lesbian. But that’s okay, because there’s nothing wrong with being a lesbian.

 

Zee: Thank you.

 

Lore: I should point that out.

 

Zee: Thank you Lore.

 

Lore: Of course. So shall we just get to it then?

 

Zee: Yes. We sat and thought about some of the comments that some of the trans people in Lebanon, specifically receive. We thought of Lebanon in particular, but we can still talk about some of the comments that Emmy must have heard outside of Lebanon. I think that would be interesting. Let’s start with the simplest: إنت صبي ولا بنت؟

شو عندكن تعليق؟

 

Nadz: في عندي قصة مهضومي صارت معي مش من زمان، من كم جمعة. نقلت عحي جديد، فتت علدكان. كان في مراة ختيارة وجوزا رجال ختيار. ففتت علمحل وبت قلي المراة: بشو بساعدك حبيبي؟ بقلا please بدي 2 gauloises. فبيطلع فيا جوزا وبقلا: هبلة، هيدي بنت! بتطلع فيي المراة هيك، بت قرب، بت قلو: وله، شو باك؟" بعدان بتعتذر مني بت قلي sorry حبيبي هيدا خرفان. واضح إنو مش فهمان. بيرجع هو بيطلع فيي، هيك بقرب، وأنا هيك standing awkwardly smiling waiting for my cigarettes. فهيدي sample من الإشيا يلي بتصير معي دايماً. إنو الناس بيقروني بطرق مختلفة. ومن كتير صعبة وقت تكون شخص واحد يعني، عم يتعاطى معك. فأجملاً وقت الناس فردياً بيتعاطو مع الناس الترانس أهين بكتير من وقت يكون في شخصين أو تلاتي. لأن أوقات بشخصين أو ثلاثة، كل شخص بيقرا بطريقة مختلفة، وبعدان بسيرو يناقشو. 

 

Zee: ادامك.

 

Nadz: بصيرو يناقشو ادامك. بصيرو يسألو  اسئلة. ويلي بضحك إنو بيسألو  اسئلة أخذتني يمكن 10 سنين لاعرف جاوب عليا، وهني بدن جواب كتير سريع.

 

Zee: مثلاً؟

 

Nadz: مثلاً إنو حتى سؤال "صبي ولا بنت؟". هيدا إنو الواحد بفكر في عكل السنين، وبروح وبيجي، والناس بدا جواب وحد محدد. أو مثلاً السؤال تبع العمليات أو مين بت حب أو...

 

Lore: Would you like to ask me what my response is?

 

Zee: Yes Lore.

 

Lore: I also have a very funny story, where I was waiting for a cab, and someone on a motorcycle passed by and goes: "إنت صبي ولا بنت؟".

 

Nadz: يعني بوقف تيسأل السؤال.

 

Lore: Yes. It’s such a super casual question. He might as well have asked me about the fuckin weather. But whatever. I just look at him and go: إنت خرى ولا أخرى؟. And they had no idea how to respond to that, so. As we mentioned in the first podcast, I am always angry, and my responses will always be angry and that is my story. So Emmy, what about you?

 

Emmy: What’s the question again?

 

Zee: Is you a boy or is you a girl?

 

Emmy: Is me a boy or is me a girl? Right now?

 

Zee: Well, when you hear that question, do you have any funny anecdotes?

 

Emmy: Well, I mean mostly children are asking this question a lot. And with children it’s always kind of cute. It’s potentially a teachable moment, because kids are more likely to accept things because they don’t have the same level of baggage. So if you’re like, “Oh I was a boy, but then I realized that I was a girl,” kids will be like “ماشي . okay”. You know? Sometimes, unless their parents have gotten to them. Like at a certain age you learn that it’s not chill. So kids for me seem to notice it more and seem to ask more blunt questions, whereas grownups are more likely to try to come around in a weird backwards way that ends up being, actually, a lot more offensive, or like maybe make a decision and really stick to it. Like no amount of me being anything could convince you that I’m a woman or a man, depending on the situation. You know?

 

Lore: Agreed.

 

Zee: That’s actually pretty funny because I taught kids for about 5 years. I taught in Saida and in Qatar, and it was the same. I had short hair, so “miss, are you a boy or a girl?” “إنت صبي أو بنت؟”. And I’d say for the first year before I discovered I was queer, or before I came to terms with my queerness, yeah so I was very offended for that first year because I hadn’t come to terms with it myself, so it was like one of the most terrifying questions to be asked, even by a 5 year old. You’re like: WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

شو قصتك miss؟ عيب عيب. أنا بنت! إنت صبي أو بنت؟

So it was fun for that first year, but then, you know. I don’t think I’ve ever been asked by a grownup. With grownups they assume I’m a boy, or a girl depending on my haircut. But yeah, I think my feelings about this question have changed, which leads me to لازم نفوت عسؤالات شوي أصعب.  What’s your “real name”?

 

Lore: A lot of people actually ask me that question. They think that the name that your parents give you is the legitimate name, which I fucking disagree with. But you know, that’s just me.

 

Emmy: What about divorce?

 

Lore: Do not censor me.

 

Emmy: You know? Like if you change your name after divorce, why in that instance, it’s not your real name. They say “what’s your maiden name?”. But it’s never the question of what’s your real name. It’s only your real name if you’re breaking the gender norm.

 

Lore: Of course. There’s only legitimacy where you are intentionally deviant.

 

Emmy: How dare you?

 

Lore: How dare I?

 

Nadz: I have a question. Do you get offended?

 

Lore: When people ask me that question?

 

Nadz: Yes.

 

Lore: You know, it’s sort of like a base reaction when people ask me that question. All they have to know is that I call myself “Lore”. Why would they need to ask that question? You know what I mean? I get offended not at the question itself, but at the presupposition that I must have a different name than what I’ve said. They ought to respect the fact that I am Lore, this is what I’ve said. Why can’t you just take that at face value? Why are you so obsessed with the idea that I must have a name that is congruent to my birth gender?

 

Nadz: بس أوقات بلاقي إنو الناس حشريين. هلأ أكيد مش الناس يلي كتير ضد، بس الناس كمان عندا حشرية. يعني أوقات الأسئلة، ما بعرف إذا جايي من مطرح اذى أو جايي من مطرح حشري، أو جايي مين مطرح إنو، ما بيعرفو، وما قصدن يهينو الشخص، بس بدن يسألوا اسئلة. متل وقت بيسألوا اسئلة كتير intrusive بخصوصيات النساء أو كتير intrusive للناس with disabilities. فبتصور إنو دورنا إنو نثقف المجتمع يلي حوالينا يلي open لهول الأفكار إنو ليش بالظبط هيدا السؤال مزعج أو مهين.    

 

Emmy: I mean, curiosity vs. entitlement. Like there’s some kind of curiosity that can be a kind of innocence, versus curiosity that can be like, it’s whether you think you have the right to the answer, sometimes to me, that can inform the way the question is asked. It’s a question, to me, of like I understand where you’re coming from, it’s a question of what do I need to do to be considered legitimate, and I think as a trans person the struggle is always like an uphill battle of legitimacy. Whereas cis legitimacy is granted, and of course, I’m not removing this from larger intersectional contexts. There’s so many battles for legitimacy happening in one body all the time. So it’s like why do I have to be legitimate and what do I have to do to get there? I don’t know. To me, like so many of these questions are going to be in context. Like the problem is that people think they can come up to me on the streets or in a service and ask this question. But like, you know, if you’re in cis trans relationships, for example, you talk about this shit. There’s weirdness that has to be dealt with, at some point. There are questions that need to be asked. It’s a matter of trust and respect for me. And in terms of who am I attracted to, that’s a question that depends a lot on the context. I agree totally with you that, like, gender and sexuality are often conflated. There’s an assumption of topness and bottomness. There’s an assumption of gayness or straightness. Like trans women are always going to be straight, and trans men are always going to be closeted lesbians. You know? This is the stereotype of which very few people fit perfectly. You know? But the people who fit perfectly are welcome to fit perfectly in their own little weird identities that we all have that are all mixed up. But you know, I don’t mind the question of “who are you attracted to?”. Because it can be said respectfully, I guess that’s what I’m saying.

 

Lore: Sure, and I agree. It can be. Like, you know, if it’s someone I know and it’s someone I’m familiar with and they ask me that question out of pure curiosity--who are you attracted to--maybe they think I’m attractive, maybe they wanna know if I’m attracted to them. Really, I don’t appreciate that question from people I’ve just met.

 

Nadz: I think, same as what Emmy was saying, there’s an assumed heterosexuality with trans people. Otherwise, why would you…otherwise stay a girl or a boy. You know? There’s an assumption about it.

 

Zee: Oh wow, I just remembered a question about this--“what’s the point?”. So if I were to say that I wear a strapon in bed, and elsewhere, I was asked by a family member: “what’s the point? Why isn’t she with a man? Why is she with you?”.

 

Nadz: I think these questions play into the insecurities of queer folk a lot.

فالناس ال-queer كمان بيسألو حالن هيك سؤالات كتير. وكمان الناس الترانس. لأن اه، المجتمع نمطي بيهيدي الطريقة، يعني النساء يلي بت حب الرجال، إذا فيا تكون مع رجال خلقان رجال، ليش بدا تروح تكون مع حدن ترانس؟ يعني إذا هي منجذبة للرجولة بهل طريقة المعينة، ليش بدا تنجذب للرجولة يلي معبر عنا على جسم منو رجال. بتصور سؤال كتير مهم، وهلأ أكيد ما بوافق عهيدا السؤال أبداً. في كتير أسباب ليش الناس بتنجذب لناس ثانين، وعند معظم الناس يمكن بيسألو حالن هيدا السؤال وبأدي لكتير...ما بعرف، إنو الواحد ما عندو كتير ثقة بالنفس و بضل في insecurity، وبضل حاسس إنو "لأ، صحبتي رح تتركني لحدن...نمطي أكتر". إنو ما بعرف، سؤال مهم بحسو. لنحنا نناقشو، مش مهم الناس تسألنا ياه، بس مهم بمجتمعنا نحنا.

 

Emmy: I have this unpopular opinion in trans communities.

 

Zee: Do tell.

 

Emmy: Lore’s looking at me like…oh, habibti?

 

Lore: Don’t pay attention to me. I have vocalized that I am already tipsy. I always seem standoff-ish, so please, go ahead.

 

Emmy: No, handsome. Uhm, one of the things that I’ve seen happen is trans people have a lot of trauma in general. So many of us have been sexually assaulted, are either consensually or non-consensually doing sex work, are like living a variety of dangerous situations and have experienced a lot of stuff. And to that extent, when everyday all day you’re getting misgendered, it builds this deep pain. And especially in the years when people are just coming out, this pain is explosive. It’s like a fire, and so one of the things that I’ve seen happen is like, different version of well-meaning white people, well-meaning cis people. You know? Who like make what could be considered a small mistake, but in the context of a lot of trauma, it explodes. And what we have is a situation where sometimes even good allies can become allienated by a situation where a trans person is really aggressively protecting themselves in a way that’s understandable, but also harmful. You know, we haven’t always had the space for calling in. Sometimes the best we can do is say “fuck you”. But to me it’s like a balance.

 

Zee: This is what I imagine a lot of these questions lead to, like I think this is the theme of the debate today. Like here we have a very “fuck you” view coming from a young trans man who is, I think, the fire that Emmy was just talking about. And then we have Nadz, who I think has been through the ringer. And, how old are you Nadz, do you mind if I ask?

 

Nadz: 34.

 

Zee: Yeah, I mean you’ve kind of…ذقتي شوي in the sense of kind of wrapping your head around these questions a little differently.

 

Nadz: هلأ بحس كمان إنو أوقات في burden of educating بيوقع على كتاف الناس يلي هني...ما بعرف، المرأة يلي هي single mother لنقول، لازم دايمن تجاوب لأسئلة تبع "انتي دايمن لحالك" وهيك. وهي بتاخد على عاتقها. فبتصور السؤال هو إنو الشخص يلي عم تتعاطي معو، هل بيستاهل إنو your time and your effort. وأنا مع لور ميي بالميي. إنو إذا مش حاسس إنو هيدا الشخص حرزان، أكيد هيدا يلي وقف عل-moto وعم يسألني إذا شاب أو بنت...متل ما كانت عم تقول Emmy مع ال-allies تابعنا و المجتمع حوالينا سئيلة شوي إنو نلبكن إنو "ولو! ما بتعرفو هل شي؟ ولو كيف بتحكو هيك شي؟". لأ بالعكس، خلي الناس تسأل. ما زال في هالنوع مين الثقة أو ال-trust إنو حدا عم يسأل كرمال عنجد يعرف أو يتثقف.

 

Lore: Yeah but there’s a difference. I recognize the difference. I know when someone is asking me a question out of pure curiosity and when they’re asking me a question out of pure fucking منيكة. I know the difference. I have been out long enough to recognize the subtleties between the tones. You know what I mean? It’s fucking insane that the منيكة questions outweigh the curiosity questions. You know what I mean? Which is why I’m so angry all the fucking time.

 

Zee: So how do you feel about “you’re so brave”?

 

Lore: You know, so many people told me that. I don’t know. When people tell me I’m really brave, I understand that their heart is in the right place, like I know what they’re trying to say, but at the same time, why are you reducing me to my identity? Like I get it, I really do, but at the same time I’m not just transgender, you know. I fucking like to paint. I like French cheese. I like other…like you know what I mean? Why do I have to be so brave because I’m trans? And it’s kind of the same comment that gay people receive. Gay people who are out, whatever that means. Like really flamboyant gay men or fuckin butch lesbians. Like why are we called brave? Why can’t we just be?

 

Zee: Because you are…well, I’m sorry but you’re putting yourself in harm’s way by just being yourself.

 

Emmy: For me, I understand the brave question because it’s just like someone saying…what a lot of people feel, is that there’s ways that people relate to trans people is that there’s things about themselves that they don’t reveal, they’re scared to reveal. And when they see somebody revealing something very true to them, they think “oh, you’re brave for revealing something true to you”. There’s this aspect, but like for me, it wasn’t so brave as much as it was like suicide or I try this thing that might get me killed. You know what I mean? And this one was a little bit better, so it wasn’t really that brave. It was kind of a short-term survival tactic to come out, even though it was dangerous. But there are things in my life that I consider being more brave. Maybe this is some of what you’re trying to get into. There are other things about me that are brave. Like, maybe, I don’t know, maybe the way that I love or that I communicate can be considered brave. But that’s not obvious.

 

Lore: Right? Yeah, not as obvious as this transness is.

 

Nadz: I really like what you’re saying. I think it’s very smart. But I don’t really…like honestly I think being trans is very brave.

هلأ لور ما راح اجي قلك كل يوم "حبيبي you're so brave." أو إنو بمعنى حدن so condescending عم يجي يقلك "شو حلو! برافو، برافو عليك you didn't crawl under a rock for the rest of your life." بس كمان للصراحة it is very brave. هلأ okay هي منا شي...إنو حبيت يلي عم بت قولو Emmy لأنو هي فعلاً خيار بين حدا إنو ينهي حياتو أو حدا يعيش حياتو بالطريقة الوحيدة يلي قادر فيا يعيش بهيدي الدنيا، أو يكون فيا بهي الدنيا. بس كمان إنو أنا بقدر كتير الشجاعة تبع الناس يلي بدا تكون ال-identity يلي بدا يها وعم تقبل ما تساوم وعم تعمل معارك كتير صعبة مع الأهل، مع النظام القانوني، مع الأكاديمية، مع ال-service كل يوم، مع المدرسة، بالجامعة، بالشغل. يعني بالشغل بركي أصعب شي للناس يلي هني ترانس. كيف بدا تفرجي هوية؟ كيف بدك تفرجي بطاقة؟ كيف بدك تجيبي شغل وإنت مش قادرة تفرجي الإخراج القيد تبعك. أو كيف بدك، ما بعرف، إنو تنتقل مين محل لمحل والعسكري يسألك عن ال-ID؟ كمان في شجاعة، وان بتصور الشجاعة لازم نقدرها ونذكر فيا ونعبر عنها. 

 

Zee: I agree, and I think universilly, not just in the context of it needing  شجاعة in Lebanon, I understand it’s a universal struggle.

بس خلينا نحكي بلبنان كيف الواحد بكون شجاع تيمسك أيد صاحبتو بالطريق.  

 

Like you’re putting yourself against the law--a law that is very aggressive and abusive. And so there is a form of bravery to it. Yes, if it is, I’m just gonna agree with everything that’s said in terms of condescending vs. sincere and validation of  “I see what you’re doing and I think it’s fucking fantastic”. It doesn’t reduce you to just that.

 

عنا الزناخة يلي بتجي مع simply حداً بشوف إنو انتا أو انتي ترانس، and they assume something happened to you that made you this way.

It can’t be who you want to be or who you are, it’s something…

 

Emmy: Your parents, sexual…

 

Zee: حداً غتصبك، ما كان عندك بي بالبيت، خيك كان مئزي. Do we have some of those.

 

Lore: May I?

 

Zee: You may.

 

Lore: May I interject? Well, when I came out, I had a lot of people who were asking me, “do you think that you might be a trans man because your father wasn’t available?”. Well, no. Because so many people’s fathers aren’t available and they don’t end up being trans. Like why is it that I have to be a trans man because I didn’t have a proper figure. And you know it works both ways. I was just talking about this earlier, where with a trans man it’s “you didn’t have the proper father figure so you had to make up for that lack.”

 

Emmy: Or your father figure was too abusive and you hated masculinity.

 

Lore: Yeah yeah yeah, it could go either way. So if you’re a trans man, your father wasn’t there and you had to be a man. Or you know like your father figure wasn’t good enough and…

 

Emmy: Your mother wasn’t there...anything just what could’ve made you like this?

 

Lore: Exactly. It’s all about making sense of you as a trans person.

 

Nadz: I’m worried about sounding like the old man, old-school annoying opinions.

 

بس للصراحة إذا موافقين كلنا إنو gender identity بتتكون من نحنا وزغار، نحنا وعم نكبر. we're exposed to things. we take on things. في اشيا بتنفرض علينا متل شو لازم نحب، شو لازم نلعب، كيف لازم نتصرف، كيف لازم كذا. فنحنا متفقين إنو ال-gender بيتكون من قبل ما نخلق، مين اللحظة يلي منخلق في وبقرر الحكيم إنو في penis هيدا صبي، وإذا ما في penis هيدا بنت. فبتصور بالتكوين تبع الناس، في هويات مناخذها أو من فكر فيها أو منرتاح أكثر فيا. منرتاح أكثر نلعب لعبة معينة أو منرتاح أكثر in the company of ناس معينين، منرتاح أكثر نلبس هيدا التياب أو ما نلبس هيدا التياب. أنا وزغير اطلع بالمرايا لابس، ما بعرف يمكن shorts و-t-shirt و-sneakers بحس يمكن هيدا أنا أكثر. بقعد بطلع بالمرايا بشوف إنو لابس فستان، بتضايق كتير أو ما بعرف اتعاطى مع هيدا الشي، بحسو منو أنا. فالتكوين تبع أنا بيجي بمراحل كتيرة. بس أكيد أكيد أكيد ما خص، ما في formula لليش ترانس. ما في formula إنو هيك صار معكن، therefore هيدا. وألا متل ما كن عم بقول لور، كل الشعب بيلحق نفس ال-formula. بس مش يعني بنفس الوقت إنو ما في تكوين جندري معين صار معنا، وخيارات معينة اخذناها و-comfort معين حسيناه لنعبر عن gender معين. حتى إذا الولاد الزغار هلقد بواجهو مسخرة و-bullying وخبيط، ومين أصحابن لمعلماتن لأهلن بعيطو علين هلقد، عم بجربوا يعملولن regulate. وبردو هني مش قادرين يكونو إلا إذا تخطو هيدي الرغلسيون، هلقد عم يتحدو شي، وعم بواجهو كتير عنف ليتحدوا يعني هلقد تكون عندن هيدا ال-gender identity وهني بحاجة يعبرو عنن. بعدان وقت نكبر بصير أحسن شوي. لأنو الواحد بيستقل، بقرر، بغير اسمو، etc.  

 

Emmy: And aside from like, without cosigning the bullshit, there is a lot of sexual violence, especially child sexual assault in trans communities. And I’m not sure if it’s so much one way, I think it’s less likely to cause the trans as is caused by the gender ambiguity of trans children and the weird fetishization of a number of aspects of gender ambiguity and a culture that enforces certain kinds of pedophilia or encourages it amongst certain classes of people. So we do also have this struggle where a lot of trans people also have experienced child sexual assault and the stereotypes about this and the stereotypes about like also like that trans people also grow up to be pedophiles or that trans people, a huge part of trans-exclusive radical feminism is the idea that trans women are trying to rape women. They’re just men trying to infiltrate feminism in order to rape women. You know, and so, but this is from a book called “The Transexual Empire” that basically believes that trans people are running and building an empire, which yalla, but no.

 

Nadz: بس هيدا ال-attitude interesting لأنو كمان بالقانون بلبنان، specifically، بجرم إنو الرجال يفوت على حمام نساء أو عحيلة space هو للنساء. إنو جايي القانون من مطرح إنو الرجال رح يستغلو إنو يعملو حالن نساء ليفوتو على محل يتحرشو بالنساء. فهني جايين من مطرح كمان يحمو في النساء، بس كمان هيدا بأثر علترانس ومن. 

 

Lore: You know, actually, can I comment about that? I’ve had people tell me. I remember one story specifically where I told a cis man that I was a transgender man and he told me, “oh man, that’s so fuckin awesome! That means that you can get into women’s lockers and shit.” Not only did he assume that I was straight, even though I never explicitly said so, but he fucking deviated the entire conversation to be about his own sexual perversion, and that I am a trans man who can watch cis women undress and that I’m so fucking lucky.

 

Emmy: A lot of the expectations and policing that happens around bathrooms actually comes from a place of paranoia that trans people will represent the larger heterosexual rape culture.

 

Lore: This is very true.

 

Emmy: Like it’s like “if I was trans, I’d be a rapist.”

 

Lore: Yes.

 

Emmy: I’m trans and I’m not.

 

Lore: Yeah. Like I’m not a fuckin rape…what do I have to say to prove that I’m not a rapist. It’s actually comments from cis men particularly that really bother me. Like I identify as a trans man and cis men tell me things that are so fucking disturbing. But it relates to cis men, not to trans men necessarily.

 

Emmy: It’s transmisogyny.

 

Lore: Yeah. It is misogyny and it’s patriarchy and it’s all these things at work. And, I mean, that’s just me. I don’t know.

 

Nadz: أنا بحس في generational gap  كتير قوية بيني وبين لور...seriously I'm like an old man

Emmy: The best old man.

 

 

 

Nadz: لأنو أنا ال-experiences معي ومع ال-cis men هي شوي منا high five. يعني ما بحياتي بتذكر إنو cis men...إنو كمان ما بحياتي بعمل come out as trans لأنو ترانس موجود. منو شي بحكي أو بقولو لأنو people see it and read it in different ways.

الشباب إجمالاً ما بيعملولي high five أد ما بيعملولي categorization بوحدي من كذا شغلة مقبولة. وحدي منن إن انتي معنسة، وحدي منن إنو إنت مسترجلة.

This, in our culture, interestingly enough is sometimes accepted, sometimes not.

 

Zee: If you’re not a threat, it’s accepted.

 

Nadz: If you’re not a threat.

أو إذا منك "شكر" أوقات. بسمو شكر يلي هي القبضاي أو حسن صبي أو أخت الرجال. في دايماً expressions يلي أكيد ما بهينو متل تبع النساء الترانس أو الرجال يلي بيلبس أنوثة بطريقة معينة. فبحث إنو ال-cis men كتير حساسين على كل شي حساسين. يعني الحساسية تبعن بت بين بعنف و-aggression. يعني عنجد so fragile. كتير fragile. إنو يلي عم بقل هيك للور عم يتبناه كأنو من ال-broz واه من إنو ok إنت فيك تكون صبي بس here is your acceptable behavior. هيك لازم تتصرف. إنو تفوت علحمام وتتفرج علبنات.

 

Emmy: Like okay you can be a man, but keep up the act and don’t make us look bad.

 

Nadz: ومنشن هيك في كتير trans man douchebagery. عنجد it's a term. في كتير trans men يعني ولا أخرى من هيك تصرفات ذكورية. بس كمان لأنو هيدا النمط يلي بدن، القالب يلي بدن يساعو في. متل كمان ال-trans women يلي traditionally بيلبسو نوع من ال-femininity أنا ما بشوفها على ولا مراة، مش extreme، بس femininity هلأد معلبة مثل المجتمع، أو they adopt names يلي هني diva names، لأنو كمان هي هي الأنوثة هيك من شوفها. ما من شوف الأنوثة متل ما كتير نساء بتعبر عنها. فكمان عنا علينا ك-trans community نكسر شوي هول القوالب ونناقش بين بعض إنو اه، أنا بدي كون trans man. شو يعني  man بالنسبة لإلي؟ شو يعني transmasculine؟ شو هي ال-masculinity يلي بدي عبر عنها وكيف بدي واجه هيدي ال-raw masculinity تبع الشباب تبع نحن الكزة هيك.  

 

Zee: I have a question for Emmy in particular. I don’t know if you’ve heard this one, but “how can you be a woman if you don’t get your period and give birth?”. Do you ever have that?

 

Emmy: So I’ve been mostly dating women, and mostly dating cis women. I’m of the belief that trans and cis people have to engage in really difficult conversations with each other. We don’t get to just take the…like I don’t get to offer you an easy answer. There are a lot of trans women who disagree with me on this because it’s a really sensitive issue, and I’m open to being wrong. But for me, it’s just complicated. For me it’s a question of “what is femininity?”. Basically second wave feminism was really important, and it validated women and cis women’s bodies in really important ways, but it was a lot of the foundation of that was the idea that there is some essential thing that’s called “womanhood” that is “woman”. Some essential category that is “woman” and “femininity” and that everything else can be built from that. And in the process they missed a lot of things. And there became this idea that trans men were actually self-hating women and that black feminism was not real feminism, international feminisms were not real feminisms because why would you even bring up race, we’re just talking about women, you know, women! That thing, maybe we keep talking about it, it’ll get more real. You know?

 

Nadz: Look what’s happened now with that. You got Hilary Clinton running on a women’s ticket for president and a lot of women buy into that still, no?

Emmy: Even though the Clinton’s are solely responsible for so much of the prison system. But the point is we don’t have such stable categories of gender, but we still have the responsibility to respect people’s relationships with that. And so, the categories aren’t fixed, but people are still going to have really intimate relationships with them. And identity has a strongly subjective aspect, and it has a strongly experiential aspect. Because you can look at someone and be like, “you don’t look like a man. You don’t look like a woman.” And you’re like dude, what does a woman look like? What does a man look like? And regardless, who told you I am so I am. You know?

 

Zee: So then how do you deal with feminists? You guys told me feminists ask this question, “how can you be a woman or a man when gender is a social construct?”

 

Emmy: This is the same kind of issue. It’s like, okay let me put it like this: this is how you sound when you say that: how can you say something’s racist, race is a social construct. You see how stupid that sounds? But at the same point we can acknowledge the way that things are socially constructed, while also dealing with biological phenomena, while also dealing with subjective experiences. The point is we can have complex conversations. We don’t have to just stop at simple conclusions.

 

Nadz: بحس صح متل ما عم تقول Emmy إنو كتير...بس كمان هو المشروع النسوي كان بكتير من المحلات عم يطرح إنو خلينا نعقد ال-gender. it's complicated. خلينا نكسر شوي إنو people are only women or men. فبفهم أوقات بيطلعو بال-transexuals كليش هيك عم تعمل؟ نحنا عم نجرب نكسر هل قوالب. ليش رايح عل-box وليش هلقد مهم الك to pass as a man. 

 

And there are a lot of people in the queer community who look down on people who want to pass. Why would you want to pass? Live in the middle and challenge perceptions.

فكمان إنو عاتق تبع هل-burden إنو أنا وقفت عليي؟

Like I need to challenge all perceptions? It’s my job?

 

بس اه متل ما عم تقول Emmy إنو كل هل conversations مهمين كتير، لأن اه شو معناتها وقت تكون رجال وشو معناتها وقت تكون مراة. ويلي حبي هلقد تعرف عن حالها كإمرأة وهلأد مهم إلها هالشي، يعني ضروري نقيد بيلي شاب وبدو يعرف عن حالو بإنو هو شاب. بهيدا التعريف هو عم يرجع يعيد إنو شو يعني يكون شاب. كمان نحن لازم نكون عم نقيد. ما لازم نكون عم...في كتير مرات بتجي من ال-privilege تبع ال-cis queers كمان. إنو "لأ! عملي هيك، إنو لي ما بتعملو هيك؟". بالنهاية هيدا قرار كل شخص وقرار فردي، وقرار بيتعلق ب-history وبأنا شو حبيب كون بهي الحياة وشو حبيب مطرحي يكون إنو علطريق وبالشغل ومع الناس ومع الأصحاب. ولإلي قرر كمان، لإلي إذا ما بدي. خي، I want to pass. وبدي ربي ذقن وبدي شوارب. ما الكن معي. كمان هيدي حرية خيار للناس لازم نحترمها.

 

Emmy: It’s easy to not want to pass. It’s easy to look down on passing when you’re not worried about your safety or your next meal.

 

Zee: I think we can maybe wrap things up with one last question.

 

Emmy: Surgery.

 

Zee: Yes, surgery. يلي بتنسألو عنها quite often.

 

Lore: اه أكيد.

 

Zee: مين بدو يبلش؟

 

Lore: أنا ببلش.

You know, people ask me “have you had the surgeries yet?”. The thing is why are the surgeries necessary for me to establish my transness. Why should I remove my breasts or get a penis so that I can be validated as a man? Why can’t I be validated as a man without the surgeries? That’s a very important question.

 

Zee: I’m sure a lot of people have a lot of very direct answers.

 

Lore: Nadz, answer me! Directly, now Nadz.

 

Nadz: هلأ أكيد الشي يلي أكتر شي interesting هو إنو الناس وقت بفكرو بال-trans بفكرو بالأعضاء التناسلية.

 

Lore: مظبوط.

 

Nadz: بوجودا وبعدم وجودا. يعني أنا بحس الناس عالشارع وقت تغلبط فيي، هي خصها كتير بالشعرات. متل ما Zee عم تقول إنو وقت تقصي شعرك قصير. وأنا بقول في 3 اشيا بيطلعو فيا خاصةً ال-transmasculine people. أول شي طول شعرك. تاني شي إذا ما عرفو، they're confused، they look at the chest area. إذا في صدر أو ما في صدر. They're confused about the chest area، بيطلعو بالذقن. في ذقن أو ما في ذقن. هلأ إلي أنا it's فظيع أدي ال-facial hair أدي it's important عند الناس. فأنا كمان بس الناس تتغلبط أو تفكرني صبي، بت فكرني صبي زغير عمرو 16 أو 17 سنة لأنو ما في شعر وما في هيدا. مع إنو في تجاعيد، وفي شعر أبيض. بس السؤال تبع ال-surgery  كمان...إنو ما بعرف. هيدا بلاقي offensive. لأنو هلقد instrsive، إلا إذا كان صديق كتير عزيز. بس حتى الصديق العزيز، لأ. إنو هيدا السؤال هلأد intrusive وهلأد خصو بال-medical وبال-psychiatric وكل هل قصص. ما لازم تفرق.

 

Zee: Wow, Nadz finds something offensive. Fuck yeah! High five Nadz.

 

Lore: I am slow clapping. High five. Nadz disagrees with something.

 

Nadz: Still calm, but I find it offensive.

 

Lore: You know what? I find it super fucking offensive, but that’s just me.

 

Emmy: I could drone on about this for a while, but I guess I’ll leave my point with just something really simple, which is that, and I think I can speak for a lot of people on this. But maybe not, we’ll see. We don’t want to have to prove to you that we’re legitimate. The whole problem is a constant uphill battle of legitimacy, and of who gets to control what is considered legitimate. And this isn’t just a trans problem, this is a problem in so many aspects of society. And it’s a problem that I think a lot of people can relate to, and so I think it has the potential to be fodder for really intersectional conversation.

 

Zee: That might be our next podcast. Thank you!

 

Lore: Well, this is Lore.

 

Emmy: This is Emmy.

 

Nadz: This is Nadz.

 

Zee: And this is Zee.

 

Lore: Saying goodbye until next time.