*Music* 

رولا: عم نحكي عن شعر الجسم وكيف فينا نشوف موضوع شعر الجسم من ناحية سياسية، وخاصّةً الموضوع أكتر موجّه للنساء والأشخاص يلي ذو الجندر منه نمطي أو ترانس كمان، لإنه شعر الجسم بياخد معنى شوي تاني بالمجتمع.

*Music* 

Naya: Hello, my name is Naya, I'm a volunteer with the A project and I have a lot of hair on my body as an Arab woman I think. That's what happens usually, like a dark haired person also I've had a lot of trouble dealing with it in my teenage years, now I'm better. Very interested to hearing about other stories and sharing mine. Maybe it might have other women relate to it. Just women relating to each other, to these problems that we don't really talk about usually. Preferred pronouns: she/her/hers.

Layla: Hi, my name is Layla. I'm not a member of Dammeh but I'm a good friend of Rola, which is why I'm here. I didn't know this was happening, but I think this is an interesting topic, and I think this is a good idea so I'm just interested in seeing what happens here and what the discussion is going to be.

Noura:  Hi, I'm Noura. I guess I am here because I can't decide if I should wax my mustache or not. So hopefully, this answers some questions.

Mireya: I'm Mireya. Coming from the US, all the discourse around body hair is always centered on white women who have a lot less body hair than say someone like me, I'm Mexican. It's a very different conversation. So, this is kinda really new and interesting space for me. 

Hadya: My name is Hadya. I hope I'm not getting that space. I'm a feminist from Pakistan and I heard that this discussion was about body hair. Hair has been really political for me although I didn't realize it until a much later age. Body hair specifically, because being South-Asian there's a social pressure on Bikini and not have hair in certain places, and if you do then you don't fit into what femininity is. So now I actually grow my arm hair and my armpit hair, and we will talk about that.

سارة: الـ topic شوي special عندي لإنه كتير بقضّي وقت بالـ shaving وبِتعّب كتير، فعبالي إسمع شوي أفكار.

Rola: My name is Rola, I also work at the A project. Preferred pronouns she/her/hers. I'm interested in talking about body hair from an angle of rituals. I have mixed feelings about body hair and I guess I want to see if other people have that. For me it was a lot of ritualing with my mother and my sister, on the premises of something that I know is pushing femininities in a way that it's supposed to look like. But at the same time, I have really nice memories growing up of me and my sister figuring out how to do that together, and stuff like this. We used to talk a lot during. So it's just something to do with ritual, so I like the concept of subverting these things sometimes and discussing them in a different way. So, I want to see if other people have also positive experiences with removing body hair from bonding with other women. I'm curious about this.

Serena: Hello, my name is Serena. Body hair, wow. I have so much to say. I remember when my mom took me to my first waxing experience, I was 8 or 9. It was so painful and I hated it and I was like why am I doing this? Only because my mom told me that I am dirty because I have hair on my body, yet hair is so... It comes by. How can you deem it as dirty? I'd like to talk about experiences and this feeling of shame that shouldn't be there but is.

Rola: I think there are lots of topics on the table, and one more person at the door. A few things came up, cleanliness is one, hygiene is another, and your first time I guess. Maybe we can start from first times because that’s. Even if there isn't a first time, then that's really interesting. I'd like to know how that happened. And feeling exposed and shame, so maybe we can start with first times and experiences of having to remove body hairs.

Serena: So, I had two fist times. My first first time, I was 12 and I was living in. And it was themed like beach party in Montreal. It was winter but we wanted to do a beach party inside the school. My mom, we prepared together what I was gonna wear, I had big baggy pants and it was... I had something quite, I would say conservative, to wear at the beach. So I went and my friend there was super shocked that this is what I was wearing. So she took me to her house and she gave me heels and she gave me a mini-skirt. I had never shaved my leg and she shaved my legs and it was like a secret that I had to keep from my mom because my mom was like there's noway in hell that you're, you're too young to do this. The first time was super exciting and I'm shaving my legs and wearing a mini-skirt, and I had to hide that from my mom. Then my mom found out and it was really... It was a lot of shame that I had to hide this. It was really weird. And then the real first time, it was my mom's idea when I was 14 and she used the Silk-épil on my leg. Never, my hair was still baby hair, it was two years later so it became baby hair again and I had never felt that kind of pain and we did it at home. It was the most horrible thing ever. It was so painful and she did the first leg and I wanted to stop, and she pressured me so much into doing the second leg because you can't be with just one leg like that. And it was really really horrible. So now when I think about it, the difference of reactions between, just because I was 12 the first time and 14 the second time. What changed? Once I wanted to do it the second time, I didn't want to do it and it was the opposite for her. I still don’t, I'm not sure I understand why there was so much pressure on me to not do it, and then to do it from the same person, just like two years later.

Rola: Did you just start showing off one leg tho?

Serena: No, I did the second one. She pressured me into doing it, so I did it.

Rola: شفرة ولا؟

Serena: No, the machine, you know? It was so painful. That’s my first time.

Layla: The same thing happened with my mom about there being an age before which is too early and an age after which it's time. At first I wanted to shave, I think. I don't know. I don't remember the ages exactly but maybe I was 13. She kept on telling me: لأ بعدك صغيرة، ما مبيّن شي ما بعرف شو. And then one or two years later, eh ok I can do it.

Rola: It's time.

Layla: It's time. Bas she did it, it was funny actually because she did it with سكّر and you know إذا بيعرقوا إيديكي السكّر ما بيزبط. لإنه كانوا عم يعرقوا إيديها all the time. السكر علّق everywhere.

*Laughter*

Layla: كارثة كارثة. But then it happened, so I shaved up till my knees. And then I started using Silk-épil.

Rola: You think she was nervous? She's probably never done it with somebody else.

Layla: She was nervous. Very funny, I remember this and I laugh every time. علّق السكّر everywhere بالحمام.

*Laughter* 

Hadya: I wonder if the difference in age has to do with when we sexualize girls. Because 12 is kind of too young, but then 14, you start kind of getting objectified like that and then 16, I feel like you become more of a sexual object for men and then you have to start shaving. My mom, it was when I got my period because I remember before. I got my period pretty late like I was 13 and a half almost 14, and before that the hair on my arms and legs started growing a lot, and so in my class all the girls had done wax or shave or something. And I always felt really conscious and I would, we had these cards in schools. I remember trying to hide my hair physically feeling uncomfortable. But when I got my period, my mom was like, ok now you can go let's take you to the parlor.

Naya: I had the same thing with my arms' hair before my mom let me remove mine. That was much later. She accepted, she wanted me to remove my leg hair, but my arm hair was much much later before she accepted and I was always, always with my arms, which is very weird, why do we hide our arms? I don't know if that's something like in the US, is it weird to remove your arm hair?

Mireya: I think it is for white women. White women. But in my family we never did it, but other people. Other Mexican girls they were. And they would shave it because it was considered dirty, I don't know why.

Rola: I don't know if I can remember completely a first time. I remember tho that before there were all the... I think it was that we had once a tricky situation where my aunt has a beauty parlor. We were in fact quite early young. We were the first to thread into the eyebrows. Eyebrows for me, I was like: what happened? I felt like it changed my face, I don't know if any of this happened to you guys when you remove your eyebrows. I look like a different person. It's so weird. And then for a while, I kinda liked it looking like a different person. And then I was like I'm not sure. هلق I don't touch them, but I also think that they fucked my eyebrows. If you keep removing that stuff they really go thin, and now it's good to have the bushy back. So it's really, it's very frustrating what they've done. At least it's not tattoo. I'm glad we skipped that generation. We got to wax our legs once, but then it wasn't like because there are other mobility issues of girls moving around. So we couldn't, we were very young, I say we cause it was always my sister and I, so we couldn't just grab a cab and go or just walk into the street because they were very worried about girls walking out لحالهن. I remember then I discovered the tweezers and so I used to do everything by tweezers. It was kind of tantric, almost. It was like people who comb sand, it was the same with hair.

*Laughter*

Rola: It was a very peaceful process. I'd have a conversation and just tweeze, because the thing for me that was the big conversation at home was never use, never shave. Don't fucking shave, don't shave. It was so bad that I shaved once my arms and then that was the last time really that that happened because I was terrified. Cause my mom kept saying, they'll come back, they'll be hard. Then nobody will be able to touch your. I mean I shave my legs all the time now, so that's actually true by the way. Fun fact, shaving does make them hard. But no one has time to tweeze.

Speaker: No one does that.

Layla: And it's also painful.

Rola: إيه, that's my story.

Hadya: Thinking about that, one of the bonding activities between my mom and I, she hates shaving, so when I'm home for the holidays, she sits and then she puts her legs on me and she makes me pluck her leg hair. She really enjoys it. It's disgusting.

Rola: But why is it disgusting?

Hadya: I don't wanna pluck my mom's leg hair, you know?

Rola: If you say it like this. So you asked a question about is it maybe about sexualizing? So is it when girls grow up, do we feel إنه آه صار.

Serena: Even the topic of being presentable, you know? And that's what my mom always used to say: you need to be presentable, you need to be clean. But yeah, I don't know. I really, I don’t know. I'm at a loss of words cause this has been, this topic has been through my head for so long. It's likeخلص . I remember actually the first, first time. Wasn't there, I just remembered when you told me. The first time was, I think I was 7 or maybe 6. I remember it cause I remember my dad was living with me at the time, so he left razors. So, I saw like movies had, there were no hair and I had a bit of hair, so I took razors and I shaved it in a really hard way. So everything was bleeding. So I came to my mom, I remember she was watching TV and I'm like, look mom, and this blood on my arm.

*Laughter*

Rola: فيلم رعب

Mireya: Am I pretty now, mama?

Serena: Cause I remember my dad always shaved me. I'm like, I wanna do this. This is so cool. You know, like, fun. And then I realized later on it's not that fun. I had high hopes.

*Laughter*

Mireya: Thinking a lot about, not just leg hair or arm hair, but specifically pubic hair when it's shaved. And how that is, especially in porn and to infantilize the women and make them more consumable in a sexual way and how body hair a lot of the time is, I'm completely coming from a US perspective. I grew up there, right? So I'm not sure how it's different, even in Mexico. Body hair is more shameful, like if you have a lot of it and if it's darker and how that's different. So colored bodies are seen as more animalistic, more dirty, and the only way to make them acceptable and consumable in a lot of places that have been colonized is to make them more resemble a cleaner and whiter body in some way or another.

Hadya: I remember facial hair. So even though I didn't have a lot of it, I remember my aunt was getting married and this was after I had gotten started to get waxed and stuff and my mom said, oh, you have a lot of hair on your face, so we're gonna do something about that and get rid of it at the parlor. And I thought that, you know, it would either be threaded or waxed. Bleach was put on it and it was painful cause it burns, right? And after that my hair was golden cause going with that idea of the white body and resembling, but it doesn't really work cause like then it's, you have this shining little beard instead of

*Laughter*

Hadya: But I hated that and I never got bleached again. That's something I thought of. But I was thinking about your point about how women kind of bond over these things. And I remember going to the parlor and as much as I hated even the shaming that went on in the parlor by the women who worked there: oh my God, you haven't come to me for two months, this, this, this. Just women being together and, and the things they end up talking about while all of these things are going on. Cause they share some really intimate stuff. And even though this person's a complete stranger, they'll ask you everything about your life, while they're threading you. And you're like Ahh but okay, I'll answer your questions. And it turns into this really intimate experience of women just sharing. So that's a thought that came to mind.

Serena: Eh, I remember bleaching I had like a phase. Because my mom would bleach her face and she would have to bleach your face too. I'm like, okay. So I did it. It burns. It burns. You wait 10 minutes and then sometimes if you put it on for too long, you get red and you get bit allergic and spots and pimples just to get blonde hair. And then I remember actually, my friend who's white. I was gonna say, who was white.

*Laughter*

Rola: Who is still very white.

Serena: She has blonde body hair, right? And she would never shave it. And then she'd tell me, why do you shave yours? And I am clearly like dark brown. And then I told her, don't you realize? My color of body hair is more stigmatized than yours. For you, it's oh, okay, hair, I didn't shave. For me, it's not the same. I dunno, it's not the same. I'm not gonna say repercussions. What's the word? Not the same.

Hadya: Social stigma?

Serena: Yes. Kind of. Yeah.

Noura: I Remember my mom would make me bleach because, not, not even because the hair was dark, but because she thought it was clean. So apparently me bleaching would like open up my pores and then magically they would become clean.

Speaker: Oh, damn.

Rola: How?

Noura: I don’t know.

Serena: It's because it looks dirty, right? I think more than we think that it's actually dirty.

Rola: What is?

Serena: Hair, dark hair. It like, I don't know if that. I wonder, do people really think it's dirty hair? Don't they know that It's actually?

Hadya: I think people really think it's dirty. I don't know why.

Serena: Or does it look like because, dirt looks dark. I don't know. It’s so weird. Why would you think it's actually dirty? It's here for a reason. Doesn't make any rational sense, you know?

Rola: I'm wondering about also what, what Mireya was saying about shaving pubic hair and pubic hair is a whole different ballgame. It's not out to show. Everything else is on the respectability. So underarms, hands, facial hair, eyebrows, legs, toes, which was a thing at some point. That was weird.

Speaker: Still is, no?

Rola: ما بعرف بس when I know people who come to Lebanon because it's cheaper to wax here sometimes, who are from the North, and they come and they're like, wow she even did my toes. It's like, wow. They really pay attention to the details in this country. They know where the hair grows. Which is true. They really do pay attention to the details. Cause when I tried to get waxed anywhere in the global north, I'm like, you guys don't even know where that is.  You're missing all the good parts, but you left some. And then you hear your mama's voice. So cause here they go after you with the tweezers on your way out. Tweezers. So anyway I'm wondering, so I think pubic care is a whole different ballgame. I have this issue يلي هي, if you shaved completely your vulva أنا I can't. I find, I'd see myself weird, I think. It makes me feel very uncomfortable. ما بعرف if this is just something that people say so much that I also have bought on. So it's, I don't know. I don't know which is the tool. Common thoughts يلي هي إنه obviously I don't think it's cleaner to shave it all off, but then I do think it's infantilizing to shave it all off, and I don't know if I'm seeing that because other people think it's infantilizing. So I don't want to recreate that kind of thought at the same time where I'm seeing how a woman wants to shave her pubic hair through a male gaze at the same time. I'm very weary of it, but then it's already in there. So I do feel that way about it. So I don't shave in like completely. And I keep having this discussion with my mother and my sister. So maybe I won't have this podcast out. But they don’t listen. And they're like, it's cleaner. And I'm like, guys, it's weird. Don't you feel nine? I mean, and also that there's so much sexual, there's so much excitement that comes with grazing over hair on your, from the outside. So hair everywhere, your hands, your pussy, like all of it. It's so nice to graze over hair cause it excites you. So I feel it's nice cause it keeps the humid in, so maybe that's what they mean by dirty, that it keeps things wet. Did I get too detailed? But anyway, I feel like that's what I like about hair. It keeps it wet in the right place and it's nice to touch. It increases the excitement. So maybe that's why they think it's nasty? ما بعرف but there's a certain sensual element to hair. As much as people wanna say there's disgust, I think there's definitely a sensual element, which is why all this French porn is all about, look at those French women with all that hair. You're like, why only French women?

سارة: visible  أكتر ما يكونblond ؟ إنه إذا كان الشعرblond  ما رح يتأثروا إنه there’s hair, there’s no hair, they don’t care.

 But if it is black رح يكون visible ففي جرأة أكتر. في hair أكتر. وبحس إنه بتجي من الـ dynamics  تبع الـ men, women. الـ man هو القوي يلي عنده stereotype إنه في شعر، في mustache. فإذا المرا بدها تقرّب عهيدا الـ stereotype بتكون عم تتجرأ أكتر فما بِناسبهن. ما تقرّبي على الـ stereotype تبعنا. نحنا عنا شعر، نحنا عنا القوة، نحنا عنا المركز. فإذا بده يكون عندك شعر يعني عم تتجرئي. عم تقرّبي علينا. فلأ، شيلي شعراتك.

رولا: بتعرفي ولا مرة شفتها هيك بس I think ، متل ليه الرجال بِعصّبوا من الكويرز يلي شعراتهن قصار ويلي ما بتكون عم تلبس بأنوثة بس هي في كمان نوع من استفزاز.

I think Sara’s onto something.

في نوع من استفزاز يلي بِصير مع الرجال بس لإنه مرا مفكّرة حالها دكر. بِكونوا هني شايفينها إنه هي بس  she’s cutting her hair and shaving like she wants, but they think she’s trying to steal masculinity.

بِحسوا مش بس إنه جرأة، بفتكر بِحسوا إنه في تهديد.

There’s a threat, which is nice. You can’t touch things on face, you can’t shave face cause it’s drama.

Serena: I shave face. undercover.

Rola: إيه أكيدة، بس try to shaving your face in front of your mother.

*Laughter*

Rola:  لأ عنجد، الدراما. بوقتها كان في conversations around, my aunt had a beauty parlor, electrolysis. Which, when they describe it to you, it's supposed to seem cool, but really it's kind of scary. The needle goes straight into the hair and it electrocutes the core. So the conversation we just had, we wouldn't need to have, cause it's not coming back. And then I'm like, okay, that's creepy. But they have to poke holes in your face.

Serena: Yeah. And it actually does grow back for a lot of people.

Rola: Oh, well it's good I didn't take that option.

Serena: Yeah, and it's like a horrible realization that you had to go through the pain and then it's just, it's still here. I know a few of my friends who went through that and it's like,

Rola: It's terrible. It was always so shameful to talk about. And you know what really upsets me is I think, if I want to think about, because a lot of us are talking about being younger, adolescents, what hair means to us now, politically, as identities and it's a very nice place to be talking about hair. بس هي the shit place to be talking about hair is, I guess when you're really young. And I wonder, I think we were a bit harsh on, as girls with each other on the topic. And I really fucking hate that. We used to be really harsh on other girls who, although we were always in the same place at some point, we just didn't get caught with hair. And so, if a friend had to, she's, you know, like people go, oh, she's got a mustache. I mean as if in that kind of what's, what the fuck just happened? It's really not nice, you know? And I think that's the part that's worse because you expect it from the boys and it's always suckier when it comes in from the girls.

Naya: Hurts more. Once it came from my best friend's mom, can you? I was like, it was really horrible. I was 14 or 15 and I had a mustache like everyone, and she told me you would be so, you’re so pretty, you're so beautiful, but do something about that mustache. You have this 40 year old woman telling you that. It was. تدمّرت. Like, okay. So I would definitely be pretty if I didn't have that mustache, but for now I'm obvious fuck. This is what I heard. And also obviously from other boys and girls from the school, hearing about my mustache, being almost like all my, my teenage years my hand covering my mouth. I don't want to think about it now. Now I wax my mustache. It's the thing that I can't not do. I leave sometimes my leg hair and my armpit hair. My arm hair was a big step for me. بس my mustache, it's like the furthest thing that I can think of. It's gonna take me a long time to get over my mustache.

Rola: That's one of the things I hate the most know, how بِصير في نوع من conditioning لـ   your behavior. It teaches you how to laugh in a certain way. Let's be honest, kids suck. Teenagers are awful, awful human beings. They're the worst يمكن. بس تتعلمي كيف مثلاً تقعدي, there was a time that I could only sit like this, right? Or actually maybe this, maybe I'm still doing it. I know where I have to cover or if you have too much gum, which used to be my thing. So you have to learn how to laugh in a way that doesn't show so much gum. It's fucked up. It's the detail that nobody gives a shit about. You guys checking about my gums now?

*Laughter*

Rola: Anyway for a while. It's like, oh, how to. Cause then you catch photos and you’re like, what? And then you have to go back and reedit. It's terrible. عنجد kids suck.

Mireya: That’s interesting. Cause now I'm getting memories of growing up and everybody, like I didn't until pretty recently. I didn't really care about my mustache, or I never touched my eyebrows. But I got you. People were scared of telling me stuff about it. But I knew they were talking about it anyways, so I did develop habits like covering my mouth or like standing a certain distance away from people to make sure that they wouldn't, that it wouldn't be super visible. And I don't know why I never got too into shaving or plugging. Now I do it as a ritual pretty much, like it's not. I'll go months without doing my eyebrows or touching my mustache. But it's kind of a ritual when I want to relax now, I'll sit with my tweezers and plug my individual mustache, and then they're like, how do you do that? So I guess I have a slightly different experience with that, but I still have that trauma of, don't look at me. I know you're not saying anything to my face, but I know you're talking about it behind my back.

Noura: Hot days. It's popular and it's good. And it's attractive to have thicker eyebrows.

Rola: I know. This was very upsetting. It was Bushier. They fucked my eyebrows.

Serena: I don't get it. I remember there was this trend where, the thinnest eyebrows and then tattoos and then the bushy eyebrows came back. But only because it was a trend growing up, it was ridiculous. Like the uni-brow, you know, I'd like shave it all the time just or hide it, you know? And now,

Rola: أنا كمان

 Serena: I still do this. I don’t even realize. I just shave, even though I know it's fucked up. But I still do it so I'm comfortable with myself in public, even though I know why I'm doing it, I still do it.

Naya: Fuck it. Rola, you have thin eyebrows only.

*Laughter*

Rola: I don't have thin eyebrows. What do you mean I have thin eyebrows? They're a bit blonde on the edges. Do I have thin eyebrows? They're thin? That's it. I go to other places, they're like your bushy eyebrows. And I'm like, I like this country. They messed them up, they were full. Anyway, it's fine.

Naya: Castor oil?

Rola: اسكتي

Naya: Yeah, castor oil. They grow, you apply them, they re-emerge.

Serena: Isn’t the point of the conversation to be like, fuck trends and that's the way?

Rola: No, there's a fuck trends and then there's actually the way that you want to look. And then this is, I think the conversation that we're going around. I mean, it's not because it's in trend. For example, we could be discussing مثلاً I like having hairy legs. And maybe it becomes trendy. Okay. It looks fine بس إنه.

Naya: to have a mustache.

Speaker: Oh yes.

Hadya: Oh my gosh. But then yours won’t come back because they removed so much of it.

Serena: Oh, don't worry. They always come back.

*Laughter*

Rola: But I still think that there's something also about the way that you want to look, right? To some extent, and what it means for you in terms of wearing your body the way that you want to. So I know, it wasn't very common for me, when I was growing up to see women with armpit hair, it was كتير لأ, don’t do. And then I met this person once, she, wasn't in Lebanon, and she was like, yeah, people always look at my arm pit hair. And I was like, you know, it's hard the first time you see it to not look at it because it's so different because you're like, this really could, this is how it could grow? That thick? Cause you didn't even experiment with it that far. To even know, it could go to that distance. And then she was saying, you know, it's really strange, armpit hair is just like I feel the same way about leg hair. So she had this whole bush under her arms. She's like, but when I see leg hair, I'm like, what the fuck? And I'm like, okay, I don't get that. But that's really strange.

Naya: You have to know that you're going to the beach two days in advance, not even the day before. Cause then it burns if it's the day before. So you have to know, you have to plan your beach day. It's like, it's just everyday thing. You have to always know, it's horrible.

Rola: And then you get your period. I was once shaving in my car on the way to the beach, legs up on the. Dashboard. Shaving.

*Laughter*

Serena: Oh, that's fun.

Rola:  إيه ما هو it's a fun story. So now you know, then I can say it. Remember that time when we forgot? So we grabbed some razors and we drove out to Sour and we were shaving in the car and trying to get on the road. Gotta get to the beach. Gonna die because I can't drive and shave. Don't drive and shave. It's not smart.

*Laughter*

Serena: We can have sex stories in pubic hair.

Speaker: Oh yeah.

Hadya: I think it hurts when it's clean and when there's no hair and you have sex, it hurts. It’s crazy, and then I don't like that, so yeah, that's like my first really strong opinion. Painful sex. No fun. But it's like sexy for the guy, right? It’s always. I remember being shamed by my first boyfriend when I had hair, was like, why? Why don't you get rid of it more often? And then I started to put, and then I wouldn't tell him, that it would hurt more. And that relationship ended for other reasons, but now I think it's also linked to like women not expressing their comforts. It's linked to how others police, how you're supposed to be, right? So that goes for sex also.

Naya: Serena, maybe you want to tell the story.

Serena: do you want to go first? I guess I only have one major point in my life. Like I used to only wax, the bikini line. I never tried anything else and was always very comfortable with my hair, but I used to do that. And so I started sleeping with that guy. And he was French, so I guess used to like whiter girls. And he, the first time we sat together, he saw the hair and he was. Surprised. Let's just say surprised. He was like, oh, okay, you have hair? And I'm like, yeah, ready to fight. And he was like, oh, okay. It's fine. But he wasn't super comfortable with it, obviously. So I kind of got a little self-conscious about it because I saw that he wasn't comfortable with it. And then, so after a few times, we sit together another time, and I hadn't waxed my hair and it was grown everywhere. All of it was here. And so he starts undressing me and I'm like, sorry, I have hair. And he was like, what? Like, you always have hair.

*Laughter*

Serena: Yeah. Like, no. I usually remove them. I usually have less. He was like, what? No, that's what you have. And I'm like, oh, great. Then I'm never removing it again. So now it's all here and I don't care. I used to really like, I mean, he didn't see the difference, so…

Rola: I thought this was a conversation before he saw the difference.

Serena: No, no. He saw it. He did see it.

Rola: He couldn't tell the difference.

Serena: He couldn't tell the difference. And so I was like, okay great. So if it's the same for him, then fuck it. I just like, that's the day that I realize that really men, they don't, they're really not gonna notice if it's bikini line or if you remove that patch of hair. Or if you trim or if you don't trim. It's either there's hair or there's no hair for them.

Rola: I don't think so لأ، بفتكر في gradients. I don't think they'll sign the difference between bikini area removed and a trim made. I think it's the fine details that we can suss out. ما بفتكر إنه فيهن يعرفوا بس I wonder, their face is gonna be in it. Obviously they're gonna have to know the difference. It's how much hair are you breathing? If one needs to ask.

*Laughter*

Serena: Well apparently, no, because I also trimmed and he didn't, I mean.

Rola: yeah. That's weird. Yeah. I mean, you can tell لأ?

Serena: well, he couldn't tell, so maybe, I don't know. But that's the day that I would say I'm just leaving it all. And fuck it. And then I started to be a lot more ready to fight if someone says a comment about it. Like, oh, you have a lot of hair. Fuck you.

سارة: من قبل، كانوا عطول ما يكون في  shavingمن زمان، كان عادي التريند. بعدين طلع lines and designs, whatever.

Rola: The designs, lightning and letters?

Sara: They feel proud of it somehow.

بعدين لأ خلص التريند صار ما في شي. وكتيرshame  إذا كان في. فبيتغيّر مع الوقت.

رولا: هلق التريند واقف على بين مشي وبين خففي شوي.

And then there was a time, did we see this article vajazzled? Whereفي  strasses على الـ  vagina.

Serena: Oh my god. No.

Rola: Swarovski’s part of it. Shock. Shocking.

Sara: أو  play boy lapin

Rola: The rabbit. إيه.

رولا: بس كانوا يحطوا strasses عالـ pussy  من برا.

Like when it kind of came fast to put on your tooth.

Naya: Oh my God. I don’t remember this.

Rola: Where have you been? Maybe you're just, it's repressing. There was a trend of doing design. That's so true. Maybe dyeing it a color.

Hadya: I remember having blue hair dye.

Rola: Really? Nice

Serena: My friend does that now.

Rola: Blue?

Serena: Purple.

Rola: Just on the down look?

Serena: Yeah.

Rola: That's so nice.

Serena: Yeah, it's nice, but it's special dye for…

Rola: Oh really?

Serena: Yeah. So that it doesn't like…

Rola: بتعملها هون بلبنان؟

Serena: No, no.

ليلى: بس بتعملها هي؟

 رولا: لا لا، في واحد special.

سارة: تبع الشعر ما بينحط تحت لإنه بِكون قوي.

Rola: that's gonna be nice.

Serena: Yeah, exactly and it dyes black thick hair. Like that's, I don't understand.

Miraya: you bleach it, no?

Serena: Yeah, you bleach it. But isn't the bleach what's bad for your skin?

Hadya: It's supposed to be.

Speaker: I don't know.

Rola: I've never dyed my hair, but I'm assuming when you dye مش, they bleach your hair first and then they dye?

Speaker: exactly.

Serena: So the bleach color. So the bleach, I mean, I don't know if you were talking about bleaching your face hair and how much it burns, like no. It burns much.

Mireya: If you're gonna go blue on your vagina, you have to bleach, especially if your vagina has black hair. But if you're blonde, you can just dye it.

Rola: Does anybody really have blonde? Could it be? I mean, if you've ever shaved or trimmed, it's always gonna get darker, even if you're blonde. No?

Serena: I've seen really thin pubic hair. Almost like baby hair.

Rola: Thin or like?

Speaker:  فيRed.

Rola: Red, I can believe.  بس بحس إنهevery time you remove pubic hair, it comes back darker. Doesn’t it?

Hadya: if you're blonde and if all the hair is blonde.

Serena: then maybe you never removed it.

Rola: I think maybe you've never removed it.

Hadya: then I would be like

Rola: if a white girl kept changing, then Voldemort can.

*Laughter*

Serena: it falls before it becomes long. Of course. Or else mine would.

Rola: Dreads.

Mireya: I used to ask my mom if there were vaginas hairdressers. Especially when I first started getting pubic hair, I was like, so when are you taking me to the hairdresser?

Rola: That's cute. على الـ  séchoir. Do you like it in or out? I’d like it out. Feeling wild, and she didn't like...

*Laughter*

كان في dominatrix vibes ؟ كان في شوي.

1, 2, 3 *claps* turnarounds.

*Laughter*

Rola: It was nice though actually four hits, the turnaround was another hit. And then there's always these conversations around like who's dating who? Boyfriend Trouble. I'm in reconstruction, you know, casual conversation. But it was nice. I thought it was really like, and also she's seen me in positions a lot of people haven't, because, you know, when you have to turn around, it's a really weird.

Naya: Yeah. You have to

Rola: get on your knees. Head down, ass out. Honestly, there's something. I feel like there's something intimate there, in that position. It's funny, it's cool. I think there's something that I like about that process. Not the bending over completely, but that you could do that with a complete stranger and still have a really serious conversation about nothing that has to do with bending over. Fascinated. So I have this theory that about class and hygiene and self, self-hygiene, I guess like self-grooming. The richer you are, the less you touch your body. The richer you are, the less you know how to do your hair. The richer you are, the less you know how to take out your body hair. The richer you are, the less you know how to apply your own makeup or to do your own nails or to fuck up your own nails. Cause you're supposed to fuck up these things a billion times until you find your ritual. So, and I think that the richer you get, the more other people touch you. Because you don't, so the less likely you are to check yourself for on a health trip, the less likely you are to check yourself for like body cancer, breast cancer, to check your, to look at yourself in terms of like your vulva or you know. I really think there's something about the more money you have, the more money distances your relationship with your body. And I've seen it through a lot of conversations and interviews I've had with a lot of women, and I'm always really surprised like that some women would say that they want to take medication and they'd say, oh, I'm never gonna put medication vaginally. That's disgusting. And usually ما بعرف, it can be a coincidence, but it's usually like women who are from like a higher, more-richer upbringing and background.

Serena: So we have it from a colonial point of view. We have it from a class point of view.

Layla: its sexual and paint your own pussy point of view.

Rola: And the bleaching point of view, whiteness point of view.

Mireya: We've got body hair all, all over. I got so many points of views. Why not just go at it from capitalism and how to remove body hair, you need all these products? So it's just constantly selling us stuff that we don't need, but they make it so attractive. And sound lifestyle, which kind of tricks you into like, oh, I need that.

Noura: What bothers me is that when I'm here I have to buy a woman's razor, but they don't shave as well. But then I don't want the cashier to look at me weird, so then I just settle for the women's razor. But I miss my men's razors cause they really shaved my leg hair cause my leg hair is so thick. Whereas with the ladies’ razor, I have to go at it twice.

Hadya: What's the difference more with the raisers? Cause I just buy whatever.

Mireya: The men's razors, sometimes they have more blades.

Hadya: Ah, triple blade.

Mireya: whereas the Mexican woman is like three and like,

Serena: They're made for the face, so they're also more sensitive. I use men's razors for my legs.

Rola: But they're the same, I think in how they're made. They have three or four blades and they have that green strip on top that makes them soft before.

Serena: But they're more flexible sometimes.

Rola: They get into the details of the men because they're more likely to use the razor more.

Sara: Just pink.

Rola: Usually it’s just pink.                 

Serena: And women's is more expensive.

Sara: The woman’s

بتجي مش كتير قوية متل تبع الشب لإنه بِقولوا إنه ما عندها كتير شعر. خفيفة ما بتجرح متل هيديك، بس مش هلقد.

Mireya: And they do all that stuff for sensitive skin for women, so, they added a lot more. Like the green thing that you're talking about.

Rola: It gets in the way of the razor.

Mireya: because women are more likely to need, whereas the men don't really care cause they're fucking.

Rola: Like Serena’s growing up days.

بس سكّر مثلاً، you make at home. مش السكر بينعمل بالبيت؟ هلأ بِجيبوه.

People had these little tubs, Shamas? Shamsa?

سارة: ميم.

رولا: كان في واحد اسمه ميم؟ بس كان يمطّ كمان. هو نفسه.

Sara: The famous one, it’s Mim.

رولا: لأ شمسا.

سيرينا: حطيه بالمايكروويف.

رولا: ما كان في مايكروويف. مش we used to boil it؟

I’ve never used that one, it wasn’t really famous in the house.  كان فيthe strips that you put in the freezer next to the meats.

*Laughter*

Speaker: It’s painful.

Rola: You know after some time, you lose sensation. Let's be honest.

Serena: لأ, every timeبعمل  Silk-épil. كنت إعمل  Silk-épil, I just.

Rola: How long have you stopped?

Serena: Very long.

Rola: You’ve been doing it since you’ve been 15. I can have a conversation and like ZZZZZ. I don't even, I can't even feel the pain. My heart races a little bit, but it's like Ah, but nothing really scary. If you keep, ripping hair out of a certain area, it doesn't hurt anymore.

Serena: Seven years. I cry every time.

Rola: Is it the pain or is it the political pain?

*Laughter*

Serena: It's the pain.

Rola: It's the actual physical pain. Yeah. Yeah. And this with nipple hair.

Speakers: Mmmm. Yes.

Hadya: Never going to be any hair there. So when it started I was like, is something wrong with me. Why is there hair coming out of my nipple? And then I went to my friend and went to all women's college. There was this really interesting moment once where one of my, this was much later, another one of our friends comes in and she's a discovery like, can people grow theirs really long? And she's like, okay, I think there's something wrong with it. Can you see it? And then it was just women comparing.

*Laughter*

Rola: I was thinking, I think women have had, part of women being healers and also having a knowledge of medical sciences and health and healing. It's because we've had so much experimentation with our own bodies that, for example, that, you know what a nipple that's been kind of cut, looks like, and how long it takes to heal. That's knowledge. That's really information that most people can't really find anywhere. Now, yes, with Google, but generally it wasn't a thing. So I think with hair removal, I was thinking, we know how, what are the conditions that make, ingrown hairs that make infections in the hair or why it is like if you remove with a razor that maybe you haven't cleaned or that you didn't get a new one, that you're more likely. So then you have theories like, ah, shit, I knew I shouldn't have done that because when I did, I didn't use that powder. I was sweaty. All that kind of stuff. That's hard science now that dermatologists claim. But really, it’s stuff that your mother told you growing up, like, don't do this, don't do that because this is what's gonna happen. It's not because they went and they paid money to see a doctor. It's because it's just stuff that you learn. I think it's really like, it is science. It's about germs and germ theory and infection, and infection precaution and all of that stuff, but I find it really cool.

I'd like to thank everybody for coming. It's so cool to meet new faces, new people, who now know so much about everybody.

*Laughter*

Rola: So instantly we're all friends. great. So we'll share Facebooks and whatnot.

*Music*