Transcription of Fasleh podcast episode:
PrEP: a game changer in the sexual politics of HIV

Yasmine: Hello, hello! Welcome to Fasleh, I’m Yasmine and for today’s episode, I’m going to be interviewing two of the three founders of an organization called PrEPster. Now PrEPster’s a UK-based organization that educates about HIV infection and targets HIV prevention specifically through advocating for the use of PrEP. PrEP is a preventative pill for those who might be exposed to HIV and you’ll learn more about it shortly. So I have with me here today Will and Richard and I’ll let them introduce themselves and PrEPster.

Will: Hi Yasmine, I’m Will, I’m one of the three co-founders of PrEPster along with Richard who’s here with us today and our colleague and friend Mark who’s in London at the moment. We set up PrEPster in October 2015. We were all at the time based in London and Mark and I used to work together at a big HIV and sexual health organization and along with Richard we wanted to start doing something that would help to educate people in England about the use of PrEP. And PrEP stands for Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis, or Pre-Exposure HIV Prophylaxis. And that’s the concept of taking the same medication that someone would take if they were infected with HIV as treatment. So taking that same medication on an ongoing basis if you don’t have HIV to prevent you from becoming infected if you became exposed to HIV. And PrEP has been available in the US for more than 5 years now. Big international studies showed how well PrEP works if it’s taken correctly. And all of us were frustrated by the lack of progress and availability of PrEP in England. So we set up the website PrEPster.info firstly as a way of informing people about PrEP so the education part of it, but also to organize some political activism to really push for PrEP so that’s the “agitate” part of the website. We educate and we agitate.

Richard: I’m Richard. I’m Lebanese and helped co-found PrEPster when I was living in London and I was in charge of making PrEPster come to life visually so the website or the visual communications, that’s my thing.

Yasmine: how did you find kind of starting this organization, I guess, and website? Was it something that was hugely lacking in the UK on a grassroots organizational level? Was it kind of the first of its kind? Are there other people that you collaborate with that are working towards the same thing now?

Will: so when we first set up PrEPster, there were some other organizations that were doing education work and some political lobbying around PrEP but all of us felt like there wasn’t a real push and drive, particularly from a kind of grassroots community perspective. Lots of, or some of, HIV organizations and such health organizations in Europe received a lot of their funding directly from government and, given that the problem in getting PrEP access was government, some of those bigger organizations maybe felt a little constrained in the advocacy that they could do around PrEP. Or if they were, for example, receiving a large government grant for HIV prevention, they weren’t necessarily able to be educating people for something that wasn’t then available in the UK. And, I mean, I’ve been quite vocal in the last couple of years about how I feel that lots of HIV and sexual health NGOs, not just in the UK, not just in Europe, but across the world, are being silenced by funders. Lots of our NGOs are becoming proxy arms of government service providers and that means there’s a huge amount of silencing that goes on and I think that lots of  the priorities around HIV and sexual health – Not just about HIV and sexual health – but lots of the work that our NGOs are doing is being driven by the people who are funding, whether that’s from international organizations, whether it’s the World Bank or the Global Fund or the World Health Organization or whether it’s  big foundations like the Gates foundation, all of them are doing great work but they, you know, there’s a phrase we use in the UK that the person who pays the piper calls the tune. I haven’t got that quite right but basically, you know, if you give the money, you call the shots of what people do. There’s been a lot of controversy around PrEP. There’s been, you know, if you look back over the last 25 or 30 years, almost everything around HIV prevention has been focused either on abstinence or on reducing your sexual partners or on using condoms. What PrEP finally allows us to do is to have sex that puts us in control of our own lives, our own bodies, and I think one of the fights that we’ve had to encounter from funders, from governments, from our health services, and from some people in some NGOs, is scaring us. What happens if we move away from a mantra of “reduce your sexual partners” or “don’t have sex” or “use a condom every time”? And what we’re starting to see with people who are using PrEP – and I’m a PrEP user so I include myself in this – is that people are taking control of their bodies and their health and their sex. And for some people we’re talking to who are starting to use PrEP, they’re saying that they’re starting to have stress-free, fear-free, pleasurable sex, for some of those people for the first time ever in their lives. So PrEP, as a concept, is actually quite radical. And I think that one of the things that we’ve been having to kick against is those organizations, those bodies, those authorities, they feel like what we do with our bodies and what we do when we have sex is under their control rather than under our control or under the control of the people we are directly having sex with.

Richard: when we first started thinking about, you know, creating PrEPster, that was a few years ago, there was bits and pieces of information out there but there wasn’t one place where people can go and have clear information with simple language. And that was the main drive when we created PrEPster: to compile all this information, to have it easy to read and access. And the language that is used we fought for it to be very inclusive. So PrEPster was, in a way, one of the first places online where you can go where you can have all the information you need about PrEP and how to take it, what it does, what it is, who can take it, and all of this stuff, it was all compiled in one place and I think that was a big thing.

Yasmine: so with that in mind, and before we launch into some of the very interesting and rich points you brought up during your introductions, I wanted to ask you if you could elaborate a little more on how PrEP works and on why it’s such an important part of our sexual health and our care and our practices of sex, our sexualities, etc.?

Will: so PrEP is - In most parts of the world right now, people who are taking PrEP will take one pill a day on an ongoing daily basis. And there’s now a huge set of very compelling international evidence that shows that when someone who doesn’t have HIV takes PrEP on an ongoing basis, it’s incredibly effective at preventing that person from becoming infected with HIV. In fact, most international PrEP activists are now saying that PrEP is almost 100% effective, and the caveat there is “almost” because there have been very very small number of cases of people who have been taking PrEP on an ongoing basis that have become infected with HIV. But those are a handful of cases out of tens and tens of thousands of people who are taking PrEP. But also for PrEP to work, it has to be taken a certain way.

Some of the clinical trials where there have been people who have become infected, it’s broadly because they haven’t been taking PrEP, either at all, or often enough. There are also other ways of taking PrEP, other than through daily dosing.  And particularly in France, they’re now looking at something called event-based dosing or on-demand dosing of PrEP and that involves taking PrEP both before and then after – so 24 hours and then 48 hours after, again, an episode of having sex. And that’s, you know, that’s great if you know when you’re planning your sex but actually some of the research that we’ve been involved in particularly on men having sex with men in London is that with phone apps like Grindr and Tinder, increasingly people aren’t planning their sex. Sex is much more spontaneous. So that way, the event-based or on-demand dosing of PrEP isn’t going to work for lots of people.

But I think in the context of where PrEP might work in the future, I think there are some pretty exciting developments that are starting to come through about looking at PrEP. Not taking PrEP as a pill but through using vaginal or rectal gels or foams or, in some cases, injectable formula of PrEP that would work like long-acting contraception. Those are all in the pipeline. Those are all in the horizon and I think offer amazing opportunities for the future of PrEP.

Yasmine: so I have just a technical question actually. There’s also something called PEP and I only recently found out that this was different to PrEP. Would you mind telling us a little bit about the difference between these two medications?

Will: sure. PEP is Post-Exposure HIV Prophylaxis and PrEP is Pre-Exposure HIV Prophylaxis. They pretty much work in the same way but with PEP so Post-Exposure Prophylaxis, you’re taking usually three pills of HIV treatment or the same drugs used in HIV treatment, you’re taking that after an episode of sex when you think you were exposed to HIV. Broadly, that works best soon after that episode of sex happens and certainly within 72 hours but most researchers, most advocates, are saying it’s best within 24 hours of being exposed to HIV. In most parts of the world, that’s a month long or a 28-dose of three pills a day. And that, in effect, if it’s working, prevents HIV from getting, kind of, embedding itself in the body and replicating, and you becoming infected with HIV. So most people know about PEP and, you’re quite right, then confuse PrEP with PEP.

PEP has been around for 15, 16, 17 or 18 years or so. PrEP is much newer. And PrEP is Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis so that’s taking the medication before you have sex and you need to take it enough times. You can’t take it five minutes before you have sex. You need to take it in advance of having sex so that’s why it’s called PRE. But actually it’s a little bit confusing because you also need to be taking PrEP after you’ve had sex as well. So it’s actually PRE and POST, it’s a little bit confusing. But we still call it PRE. I think a useful analogy is to think of PrEP like taking ongoing oral contraception. So you’re taking it on an ongoing basis to prevent something from happening and thinking of PEP almost like emergency contraception that you would take if you had either forgotten to take your daily contraception or, you know, it hadn’t worked or a condom had split. That’s probably a useful way of thinking of it.

Yasmine: so what, I think, is really interesting in the distinction between these two is not only how or when you take it or the way it works on your body but also the larger questions and conversations that arise on what it means to start using PrEP as a preventative measure, for PrEP to be available governmentally and through national health services and things like that - versus PEP which, as you said, has been around a lot longer and seems to be a bit less controversial. A couple of weeks ago, you guys actually delved into a lot of these questions in your three-day event which you held here in Beirut with The A Project. Can you tell me a bit about how that went, what you discussed?

Richard: it was really great. It was a three-day symposium called “PrEP in Lebanon: how soon is now?” and it was a series of interactive conversations and presentations and a movie screening that happened on the course of three days. And that was really interesting because not only we got to screen the documentary that we worked on together as PrEPster called “PrEP 17” but it was also a great platform for people to have these kinds of conversations and discussions because there isn’t enough space that is created that facilitates these conversations to happen about sex, consent, all of this stuff. So from my point of view, that was the most amazing thing about that event.

Will: yeah for me the really useful additional conversation that happened, other than the conversations that happened around PrEP were issues around disclosure in its biggest sense, not just HIV disclosure but PrEP disclosure and issues around consent and issues around lots of stuff that have parallels above and beyond PrEP use.

But I think the most important other issue that we talked about in those days - and PrEPster is also talking about all the events we’ve done- is now something called “U=U” which means undetectable = untransmittable. And in the last 12 months or so there’s been a big international campaign to really push this information out into the world. And what we’ve known for many years but we now know with the best possible evidence, is - it is possible to produce - that if someone is HIV positive and they are on HIV treatments so they’re taking HIV meds and they have an undetectable viral load (so actually their medication is working), it is not possible to pass HIV on.

And we think that “U=U” also called treatment as preventional task alongside PrEP completely revolutionizes where we’re going with HIV prevention and how we view HIV across the world. So that means that people who are living with HIV and have an undetectable viral load cannot pass HIV on. They cannot infect someone else if they are taking treatment correctly and consistently. And those of us who are on PrEP cannot pick up HIV if we’re taking

Will: so that means we have a whole set of people who either can’t pass on or can’t pick up HIV and this is all down to pharmaceuticals and medication. And treatment within itself opens up a whole other can of worms. But I think, for me as an HIV prevention advocate, and making sure that people who have HIV are diagnosed as quickly as possible after becoming infected and then being offered treatment as soon after diagnosis as possible is fundamental issue from a human rights perspective that we should be pushing because when someone is infected with HIV it’s important for their own health that they seek treatment and are offered treatment but also that means that they can’t pass HIV on so from a public health perspective, there’s additional important angle for us to be pushing.

Yasmine: so within a lot of HIV prevention discourse and this coming from INGOs and - I don’t know -maybe governmental health care services as well, there’s a lot of talk about eradicating HIV, getting those numbers to zero. I feel like the conversation around PrEP, the conversation around prevention, it - does it have a different discourse than that? What is, in your mind, the - kind of - aim?

Will: I think some of those international discourses of getting zero and eradicating HIV that are being pushed by some of the international bodies is actually really unhelpful because it almost says that if you’re already infected, you’re somehow out of the equation. We can’t eradicate some - right now we can’t eradicate something that millions of people around the world have in their bodies already. But I also think it reiterates the person and community failures that we see around when someone does become infected and there’s already enough stigma. There’s already enough of that bullshit around. And, yes, we should be doing everything we can to get to zero new HIV infections, yes we should be getting to everything we can do to get as many people as possible who are on treatments. But that has to be a global fight. That has to happen. That can’t happen in a country whether that’s in Lebanon or whether that’s in England, the UK, or whether that’s in whatever part of the world.

And for me, I’m reminded that when my colleagues and the people I collaborate with in London start talking about getting to zero and they look at the fantastic results we’ve just seen, by PrEP combined with treatment as prevention, combined with a massive increase in HIV testing, we’ve just pushed that new HIV diagnosis by about 40% in a year. We’ve never seen anything like that happen in - the phrase they keep saying is that something extraordinary is happening. I think that’s pretty much - PrEP in the last year has been the driver of that.

But most of the fall has been in men who have sex with men, most of the fall has been in London, most of the fall has been in white gay men and, if we want to get to zero in London, and see zero new infections, not only does that mean we have to move beyond those low-hanging fruits, the people who can buy PrEP themselves and are educated about it and can use it.

But what about those people who aren’t those low-hanging fruits? What about black African women who might have insecure immigration status? What about sex workers? What about trans people? What about people who right now can’t afford to buy their own PrEP? Or in some of the instances, the people we’ve spoken to, young people who can’t afford the bus fare to go to their local clinics and enroll in the new impact trials which is the only way of getting free PrEP. So if we want to get to zero in a place like London, not only do we need to move right, and focus on the more marginalized people in our communities, but we actually need to invest in a global fight against HIV.

We have about 700 people in the UK who were diagnosed last year who weren’t gay and bisexual men, who we think acquired their HIV outside of the UK and that might be someone who migrated into the UK from a high HIV prevalence area, and had their HIV diagnosed there or someone who moved into the UK and didn’t have HIV and then either acquired it in the UK, or acquired it when maybe they visited back home.

And that means that we need to find ways of offering PrEP and other HIV prevention tools and technologies to those people, and in places where they’re acquiring HIV. So, for me, that means rich governments like the UK government need to be getting their money out of their back pocket, investing properly in international programs, rather than closing down the development programs and the assistance programs we’re starting to see in places like the UK and the USA.

Yasmine: I think it’s really interesting because I feel, like you said, it’s been successful because want that space of talking about sex without the shame. At the same time, there’s this other extreme of, maybe, people being scared of that, not because of their own judgments but because of how they would be judged by others around them. And, of course, like, on an institutional level, this is a big issue and I think maybe one of the big issues as to why PrEP is more recent and more controversial and more difficult to access than pep for example. I mean even in Lebanon I think you can access pep but you have to, like, it’s very difficult to access it from the ministry of health and the programs that sort of control that and PrEP is not even a question here. So I feel like, I mean, although they make it sound maybe like a financial or technical difficulty but, I mean, as you were mentioning earlier, I think it’s very much to do with the control and the power that people are getting from being PrEP users.

And the conversation around claiming that kind of control over your body and your sex life, has that changed with the introduction and the availability, although limited, of PrEP? Specifically around the idea of disclosure and responsibility and consent, you know, sometimes you hear that, like, just cause you haven’t disclosed your status, if you find out later that somebody is positive, that that was actually non-consensual and, like, how does PrEP shift that conversation away from an expectation from others to one of taking control of your own body and sex life?

Will: my observation is that pre-PrEP or previously, there was an expectation from those of us who didn’t have HIV that someone who was tested and tested positive would and should disclose their HIV status. There was an onus. Or that there was much more likely heard of people who hadn’t tested positive to ask or to self-disclose that they didn’t have HIV and, I think, what PrEP has done and, I think, what u=u has done in tandem with PrEP, has made almost paradoxically - has made discussions about status less of, less frequent, and people just getting on doing what they want to get on with. So there’s not that difficult like “when did you last test?”, “what’s your status?”, “are you positive?”, “Are you on treatments? How long have you been on treatments for?”

And I say paradoxically because I actually think that what this might lead to is a false sense of security in people who either aren’t positive and on treatment or people who aren’t on PrEP. And certainly from some of the research that I did around PrEP acceptability for my doctoral thesis, some of the men who, from an HIV prevention perspective, who I would be most concerned about, are the men who told, who gave narratives that were - they couldn’t perceive themselves to ever be having sex with someone with HIV because someone would always tell me and then they couldn’t perceive that they would ever have sex with someone who said they were on PrEP because he must be a promiscuous slut and if I didn’t get HIV from him, I’d get something else from him. And so a move towards much less discussion may paradoxically mean that some of those people who see non-disclosure as meaning I’m ok, as in I’m negative and I’m not a PrEP user, may put them in more danger.

Richard: I feel there’s so much to unpack here, you know, because before PrEP, especially talking to, you know, the - an older generation of people who watched their friends die in the AIDS epidemic in the 80s and all of a sudden there’s this new breakthrough, you know, in sexual health prevention and practice that totally changes the discourse, you know. It was about fear and now it’s more about control and prevention. So that in itself, I think, is very rich and telling.

And if we bring it to a more local level, so - and I’m going to refer to what happened during the 3 day symposium here in Beirut - with the alef project, we were a little bit hesitant about having PrEP in the title because we thought it might be too ambitious, you know, how can we talk about PrEP in a context where, you know, there is no proper sexual health education, there is no proper access to testing, there is no, you know, not much information about HIV or u=u, so there’s a big gap between the science, the education and the technology versus the reality. But it ended up being one of the drives to push these conversations forward is to have PrEP in the title of the event to kind of make a - not make a statement - but kind of say ok, there’s other ways of speaking about HIV, it doesn’t have to be about fear, it doesn’t have to be about all the messages that we’ve seen. And I guess, and I really hope, that it did its purpose by, kind of, even on a small scale, just moving the conversation along from, you know, the AIDS epidemic in the 80s to bringing a more, to having a more up-to-date healthy conversations about sex.

Yasmine: so did you feel like your event was a successful introduction to these conversations in a more public setting?

Richard: I mean it all stemmed from, kind of a personal, selfish needs of having to, wanting to have these conversations and seeing that other people are interested in having this conversation as well is amazing because it really proves that people want to have these conversations. It’s just creating the context for them that is lacking. And we did this in a really short notice period, you know, like within a week or two before the actual events and we produced visuals and created Facebook events and invited people. I mean if we could do any sort of minimal change within a very short period of time and that was all voluntary work as well, we have a lot of power. Again, I’m bringing in an education and power because I really believe that we can do change by talking about things to each other.

Yasmine: as you said, there was maybe a perceived gap, is it too early to introduce PrEP when these conversations haven’t been taking place and when the availability of PrEP is not going to get easier just off the back of this event. I mean questions of, even if you want to order online, where to deliver to, how they get through customs to the country, are still very prevalent.

But it’s really great because having these conversations are very relevant within PrEP use but also outside of it in people’s sex lives and sexualities. I feel like there was a lot to discuss and debate and I feel like a lot of rich talks were brought up that, regardless of whether somebody was going to start PrEP or talk about PrEP, they’re still thinking about sex and control in a very different way that can be applied to other forms of STI prevention, for other STIs, that can be applied to pregnancy, that can be applied to sex work, to so many important topics that haven’t been really openly discussed before.

Richard: absolutely. I mean, my hope is that what we did during the event is say, ok here’s the technology, here, how can we work backwards from there? You know, obviously, taking into consideration our own local hurdles about, you know, culture, religion, sex, all of this stuff, but like, kind of reframing and reframing the whole discourse was very timely because it was during that time that organizations were doing their messages around World AIDS Day on the first of December so that also, kind of, fueled the need for us to pitch in into the conversation and to have a new angle other than, you know, the fear and the…

Will: And I think we have the parallel around power and control, not only does PrEP enable someone who’s using it to be in control to take power around their own health and their own lives. But one of the things we learn from - and I was reminded of by doing PrEPster - was that it took, you know, 3 of us, a fair amount of work and a fair amount of effort but the impact we had by setting up our own independent website and, you know, is - (unclear) - you know, from our kitchen table with under 500 pounds and another website that happened to launch at the same time “could I want PrEP now?” between 5 activists we changed the face of what was happening, of the discussion in the UK.

And I’m not saying that we did that just the 5 of us. We did it with huge number of other people who jumped on board, including some great clinicians and who we met with who then came on and worked alongside us and then lots of other bigger NGOs have been incredibly supportive so I’m not claiming that we’re heroes or saviors but I am claiming that both of those websites created a springboard for a massive shift in the discussion and the discourse and we were certainly getting people showing up to events that we were doing that longer term NGOs just couldn’t pull people into and that reminds me of - if someone else isn’t doing something that you think needs to be done, you have the power, you have the power either as an individual and much more importantly, the power collectively to make that change. And that change may not be sustainable but change may just be a springboard and is after we were, you know, sitting in parks and doing photo shoots for the launch of PrEPster, we would still be here now.

But I think as a lesson for us all to learn about communities taking control of our own lives and not waiting for permission for someone to tell us that we can have something or that we can’t have something and it’s been mentioned before that a 40% fall in HIV incidence in England last year was before a single dose of free PrEP was made available through our national health service. There were probably before the impact started between 8 and 10000 people who were using PrEP in the UK and the vast majority of us were doing that by self-importing generic PrEP that was affordable. 35-40$/month for people who were bringing it in from overseas and that was despite some of our institutions telling us we couldn’t do that, doctors telling us we shouldn’t do that, people telling us it wasn’t safe to do that. Instead we got lots of the pills tested, we worked with clinicians to make sure that everything was safe, not risk-free obviously but as safe as possible. And none of us waited for permission from authorities or people in so-called positions of power to do that. We did that ourselves, so that massive fall in HIV diagnosis that we’ve been waiting for for two decades primarily happened because a bunch of people got off our asses and made it happen.

Yasmine: and do you think it’s come alongside, like, also a fall in the, kind of, stigma and the taboo. I mean, how do you imagine this conversation to be taken on a grander level and to really, kind of, slowly creep into more public discourse and lessens the stigma around using PrEP as something slutty as something that promiscuous people do and with the assumption that promiscuity and having a lot of sex is bad.

Will: my biggest fear or concern around PrEP being associated with promiscuity or being slutty isn’t that a PrEP user or someone who says that they’re using PrEP will be slut-shamed. It’s actually the reverse. It’s that someone who doesn’t see themselves as being at risk of HIV because they see PrEP users as being slutty and therefore I’m not slutty I don’t need PrEP will end up not benefiting from PrEP. And we’re starting to see in London that people who are primarily the early adopters of PrEP are people who are having lots of sex and that is tending to reinforce the narrative that I only slept with 4 guys last year, I don’t need PrEP. Well actually you might need PrEP because your friends have sex with 40 guys rather than 4 guys doesn’t mean that PrEP can’t be something that you can benefit from. That’s my biggest fear.

Richard: I see what you mean about the having a global mass discourse about PrEP but for me, it’s all about the context and the context of who is using PrEP and who should be using PrEP or who should be given access to PrEP or who could benefit from PrEP. For example, people in abusive relationships who don’t have, who can’t control, you know, the use of condoms, for example, or sex workers as well can, might benefit from PrEP because there’s also the negotiations, you know, when in situations where negotiations are not negotiable. I mean this is when you see, when you think about PrEP being liberating party drugs where you can see the real effect of it. And for that to happen on a global level, I mean, I’m not sure how feasible it is because, you know, people don’t talk about sex anyway in the first place, especially, you know, like, cis heterosexual people, that’s the least of their concerns, you know, like HIV and stuff, they feel that it does not even concern them. So having these kind of discussions on a global scale might be a little bit problematic but I do believe that we should have discussions about who can benefit from having access to PrEP.

Will: I think is this was, if HIV wasn’t so associated with sex and drugs and this was another health condition and we had found that there was a daily pill that you could take that could prevent you from becoming infected with something that if you become infected with, means you need to take daily medication for the rest of your life-at least right now you would need to. That was another health condition that HIV or something that was sexually related we would see PrEP available for free probably or at subsidized level across the world and because it’s associated with sex and because it’s associated with certain sub-populations of minorities then that’s the taboo that we’re dealing with, that’s the discrimination and stigma that we’re dealing with. Because not only is it about sex but it’s also about people who sell sex and trans people and men who have sex with men and women who are seen to be promiscuous if they get HIV when - all of these narratives that are added into the mix make PrEP even harder.

Yasmine: there’s so much more that we could delve into but I think for now, I have no more questions. Is there anything that you would like to address or add?

Richard: I want to thank you, really, for your time. It’s really cool what you do and it’s really nice that you allowed us this platform to talk about what we do. And let’s keep talking about sex!

Yasmine: fuck yeah!

Will: yes, let’s keep talking about sex and consent and being in control and sex when it’s consensual being pleasurable and great and fantastic part of our lives that we should have the right to be in control of and for those of us who want to have as much of it as possible with as many people as possible to celebrate that as a choice and as an option rather than us all being so ashamed about sex and sexual pleasure. So we would really love people to come and visit our website. It’s PrEPster.info. If people want to go and have a look at PrEP 17 the film, that’s prepster.info/prep17 and the film is subtitled in Arabic as well as a bunch of other languages. There are a whole lot of information resources on there if people are inspired by anything you see, give us a shout, we’re really happy to work with people on any collaborations in the future.

Yasmine: great, thank you so much. Yeah I also want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me and I love the fact that this conversation is just a fraction of the things we can delve into and talk about and I’d love to continue the discussion with you guys but also with everyone around us. I was so excited to see the event happen and to attend some of the discussions, to watch PrEP 17 documentary so thank you for coming and for sharing your work with us.

And listeners, as Will said, you can visit PrEPster’s website prespter.info for any more information or to get in touch with them and please do watch the documentary of you can. It’s short and very insightful and it’s a good watch. I can’t wait to carry on all these conversations and hopefully we can have some follow-ups together, thank you again and thank you listeners for hanging in there with us, hope you enjoyed and until next time!